(00:01):
The suicide rate is astronomical when it comes to, uh, child Protective Services being involved in cases like this, um, simply because it's, it's an isolating thing. It's humiliating, it's isolating, it's, it's unreal. And the, and the trauma inflicted. You know, we often hear of parents who, who are in bed for five, six days. I can't, I don't have the energy to get outta bed because they fall into a deep depression.
(00:40):
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(01:10):
Hey, Amy Hobar, thank you for coming on here with me, and I am so glad we got to meet a couple of months ago. How are you doing?
(01:18):
I am finer than a frog's hair split. Threeways, how are you,
(01:23):
? I'm good, I'm good. I'm glad that you decided to talk with me today. We had a lot of fun in Washington, DC but we also got a lot of work done with all of this advocacy work. You're an advocate and I was there to document the process. Tell me, how did you get into this?
(01:44):
Well, um, it actually chose me . Um, I don't think anybody in their right mind would, would go about it the way I ended up getting about it. But, um, I was, um, um, over the span of 20 years, I was a, a licensed foster parent, and we had success after success reuniting families, um, and ended up with a couple of situations where, uh, they were, there were, uh, sibling groups involved and unfortunately, um, they could not be reunited with, with their, um, birth family. So, uh, we did, uh, adoption and transfer of legal custody with the understanding that, um, the, the parents would still be involved in their child's life as long as they remained drug free sober. Um, and, uh, uh, visits would be supervised, but they would be invited to, to picnics and things like that so they could spend time with their kids and, and if needs be, uh, or they, the kids wanted to, they could call their parents. So it was important. It was very important that, um, even though they could not physically remain with their parents, that they never completely lost the ties to their family and their family structure.
(03:13):
I love that. I love hearing this perspective. I've interviewed several of the ladies that I was with, with you in Washington, dc uh, back in September, and no one has had quite had this perspective where they were actually a foster parent, uh, for, except for Maureen. But we're really talking about you, you, you got in into this and there's multiple children that you're talking about. Right?
(03:38):
Exactly. Exactly. Um, and I, I have the unique perspective because, um, through, through, uh, a separation and subsequent, uh, allegations, um, I ended up as the subject of a child protection investigation. Um, not only once, but twice and, uh, rather interesting. Nothing ever, uh, there was nothing that was founded. Um, and, and these, these allegations were serious enough that it involved going to the police and, uh, the police and I quote, uh, this does not rise to the level of an investigation. So there was allegations that were unsubstantiated. Um, but again, it's a high con, it was a high conflict separation. Um, and so it's, uh, going on five years that
(04:41):
That's, that's a long time.
(04:44):
It is a very
(04:45):
Well, and in, and in those five years, how is it that you've become an advocate now? What happened? What changed for you? You were obviously in the middle of, of this, and you're still in the middle of this after so many years, how have you turned towards the advocacy work to help other people like Heather, for example?
(05:06):
Well, I was, I was isolated, which is part of the intent when it comes to, uh, to someone making an allegation. You know, there's shame, there's humiliation, you know, there's isolation cuz you feel as though you're the only person out there. And I reached out to get help and, and people just, people do not ha you have to have the experience in order, in order to understand this. It's very complex. But the more I reached out, the more I realized that there was no place for anyone to go, just to get a simple question answered. You know, what does this word in this court document mean? Somebody, please explain it to me. Um, and it's overwhelming. It's, it's absolutely overwhelming. So I said, you know what? I'm gonna start an organization. So I founded, uh, in November of 2018, I founded a parent's organization on Facebook, started off with two people. And it's a private, it's a private group and, and privacy is extremely important for the people involved. But we share, uh, I, I learned it's a learning process. Um, and, and it's an experience process. Some things you can't fathom. But, um, so that was the beginning of it for me. I kept thinking to myself, there have got to be people out there that are going through the same thing that I'm going through. And if I could just talk to them, I wouldn't feel, I wouldn't feel like I was crazy cuz it makes you crazy.
(06:56):
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(07:23):
So how is it that you ended up, uh, helping Heather Carter? What transpired to, to make that happen?
(07:31):
Well, Heather joined my group and, um, reached out to me and we chatted about her situation. And every situation is unique. Um, and, and I saw, I saw in Heather a person who was definitely beaten around by the system and, and I just, I, I just offered her support in any way possible. If she had a question, if I didn't know the answer, I did everything I could to find the answer for her. Um, we finally tuned. I, I helped her get focus on her case. Um, I helped her to understand that, that she's not alone. And, and I'm sure that, you know, um, Heather's case, um, with my involvement, Heather's case was successful. Her girls are home and she is now an advocate in her own right. She's very, a very powerful advocate. Um,
(08:31):
The interview I did right before this with Heather, so she, hers is already published.
(08:36):
Oh, sweet. Yeah. So go
(08:37):
Listen to that. That's Heather Carter in the Pryor. Um, it's called Guilty bef. Um, guilty until proven Innocent.
(08:46):
Exactly. That was one of the things that we talked about. So Heather, amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing woman. And she's been very supportive of me as well. You know, you develop friendships with people who have been through the same thing. And you know, we grow in numbers. And some of the people, some of the people are just happy to be done with their cases if they're successful and they tend to fade into the background. Um, and as you saw in DC the people who are in it for the long haul, um, came together in DC and we discussed the things that we saw needed to be changed. And instead of, uh, our legislators coming to us, we went right to their doorstep. And as you saw, we spent hours at a conference table and discussed the, the things that we would be discussing with our legislators. Um, we did a lot of research. Um, we, we, one of the things that we definitely pushed was the implementation of the Family First Act from 2018. Um, there are a lot of states that have not even be begun to implement that. And it's, they, you know, it was 2018 and they got a two year reprieve during the covid, uh, we call it the covid season. Um, but they should be implementing and they're not. And it's important that that gets implemented. It, it's going to write a lot of wrongs with the system.
(10:27):
Yeah, that's the thing that we talked about so much at so many conference tables. Just, I know I probably was only at a handful compared to what all of you were doing. I was trying to just get a grasp on the entire situation. I wanted to understand, well, which laws, what legislation are they talking about? Where is this funding coming from and what is that supposed to be? That's, and that was something that surprised me because you know how you hear people say, oh, you need to get rid of these entitlement programs, and they'll talk about Title four funding, but what they don't realize, what people don't realize is that under the Social Security umbrella are things like this, like adoption and foster care and all of these things that come through that. And when people say to get rid of the entitlements, they're not talking about social security payments when people retire. They're talking about these extra entitlements that have been lumped in to this title E, uh, four funding.
(11:31):
Exactly. And I talk to people at length about understanding the title four B as in boy funding, which is for family preservation and reunification. Now, the government funding coming into Title four B is limited. Okay? Mm-hmm. . So essentially you, the people who get the, that funding to help keep their family together, that's like, you know, Charlie Bucket, getting the golden ticket to see Willy Wonka. Okay. What we have in opposition to that is the title four E as in Edward, funding in which, excuse me, foster care, kinship care, um, adoption and, and the, like, falls under that. And that is unlimited government funding, okay? Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . So what rather than, and, and, and we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you know, as unfair as you see it is when you look at it on paper, what we're wanting to do is we're wanting to take those unlimited funds and actually, uh, divert them back over to Title four B. There should be more funding there for family preservation, for family reunification and the like. And I also believe that kinship needs to fall under family. Okay. It doesn't, kinship shouldn't fall under adoption and, and foster care.
(13:12):
I agree with you on that. I totally agree with you. If it's family, kinship, et cetera, keep it all the same. Don't put that over into the adoption arena. I mean, and we get it. You know, I went through and did the research and 80% of cases end up being unfounded and 20% yes, of course there's always gonna be something going on where you do need this system for these children, but we don't need the system to work unnecessarily against us.
(13:38):
Exactly. And here's the deal. There's a lot going on behind the scenes that a lot of us are not even privy to. You know, there's, there's in, in 2020, I sat before the Minnesota Legislative Task Force on Child Protective Services and they ended up going two hours over because they were listening to people who got three minutes on the mic. Mm. I got three minutes on the mic. Here we are two years later, they're doing the same process. However, it's closed off to, um, participation verbally or physically by the people who are calling them out and saying, look, you've had this legislative task force going on and now you're not allowing us to speak. But I'll tell you this, I did review the, uh, the, um, audit of the child welfare system from, I believe it was 2015. And I also reviewed the, the, in Minnesota, the child welfare audit of 2020. And I will tell you the truth, the summaries are the same. All of the recommendations, and they were wonderful recommendations. All of the recommendations went unheated and they just carried over. So, you know, it, we, it, it's a, being an advocate is a lot more intensive than a lot of people would think. You know, you're facing states that have different laws. They, you're in the same situation as somebody in another state, but their laws are a little different than your laws.
(15:34):
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(16:01):
So how many people have you actually helped so far? I know you helped Heather, but who else have you helped besides her?
(16:09):
I'm in Minnesota, so a local mother. I helped her and her three children. Um, but in one way or another, um, I've helped people from all across the United States. I'm working with a mother, um, who is in a horrible situation. Um, and it's, at any given point in time, I can be advocating for four or five different people. Um, and it's, and, and during that I'm also an ear. So somebody will call me and say, you know, I'm, I'm, I just need to talk to somebody who understands. So, and then I give them insight and I, and I, I help them over this, over the hump that they have. And, but I think everybody that I've had contact with, and it's been thousands of people, thousands of people throughout the United States in the world, um, I've been able to give them some insight that helps their cases. So I can't take credit for everything and I won't take credit for everything, but whatever I can do to help, I know has been helpful.
(17:20):
Let's talk a little bit more about what that means to be a bit more helpful. Uh, when we, when when we were together in Washington, we were talking about the other things that you're working on. Camo for one, C A A M O, correct? Or is it C Yeah. And it, and tell me, what does that stand for again?
(17:41):
Community advocacy and mentorship. Outreach.
(17:46):
Community advocacy and mentor. Mentor. Outreach or mentorship.
(17:51):
Outreach. Mentorship outreach.
(17:52):
Mentorship outreach. Tell me, what is that, what is that gonna do? What is it?
(17:58):
Um, well we, one of the things that we definitely need to do, not just pertaining to child Protective services or custody cases and things like that, we need to be proactive about being advocates for those in our community who need someone to advocate for them. Okay. Um, and, and we need to network with people who can help provide services. I think one of the biggest crushes we have right now that's devastating is the lack of mental health services.
(18:32):
That's everywhere.
(18:34):
It is everywhere.
(18:36):
The reason that that does not work yet right in this country is the funding mechanism from insurance companies. Cuz they just don't treat it the same as a medical, a physical injury.
(18:47):
Yes. Until it becomes a lawsuit and then all of a sudden it's important, you know, and then they fall back on, well, if we would've had mental health services for this person, things might have turned out differently. So it becomes a oh oh ca you can't put that on me. See you. This is the reason why. This is the reason why that happened. But we don't address the reason why it happened. It just, it's a catchall sometimes.
(19:18):
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(19:45):
Camo is gonna help people connect with services. They're go, first of all, first and foremost, we're going to help families who are involved in the child welfare system and or who have high conflict divorce or separation with children involved. Um, we're going to help these people connect with each other so that they're not feeling isolated. Okay. The suicide rate is astronomical when it comes to, uh, child Protective Services being involved in cases like this. Um, simply because it's, it's an isolating thing. It's humiliating, it's isolating. It's, it's unreal. And the, and the trauma inflicted. You know, we often hear of parents who, who are in bed for five, six days. I can't, I don't have the energy to get outta bed because they fall into a deep depression. So I've found that talking with like-minded people and talking about our experiences, we are not stuffing it.
(20:54):
And it's not a, it, it doesn't have the same effect as it would if you just carried that around inside of you, you know, bubbling and boiling. Um, it helps to get that out as in any situation, you know, similar to that, being able to talk with like-minded people. Um, and it builds a network. You know, one day someone may call me and say, I just need to talk to somebody. I'm so frustrated and they cry and I say, I understand. I understand. What can we do? What can I do to help you? And a lot of it is based on how, how these individuals understand the necessity to be around people with the same experience. Because no one on the outside, honestly, no one on the outside of this without the experience can, can even fathom what goes on.
(21:53):
It's not until they experience it or it hit hits close to home and suddenly they feel it in their gut. And that's, that's like the only way to really be able to empathize with people.
(22:05):
Exactly. I mean, I have someone who's been with me for four years and that person says they did what they did. This isn't that against the law? Yes it is. Well then how are they getting away with it? You explained to me how they're getting away with it. Okay. It doesn't make sense. We're all raised with the assumption, if it ever comes up, that if Child Protective Services comes to talk knocking on your door or on on your neighbor's door, they have a valid reason for doing it. And you set it yourself. 80% of these cases are unfounded. Mm-hmm. . But the mindset is if they're at your door, you did something wrong without any knowledge of what transpired or the intricacies of it, you did something wrong.
(22:59):
Yeah. There's this guilt before innocent sort of assumption. Absolutely. It's already made. Why else? What, what have you done to draw attention to yourself?
(23:08):
Exactly. And it's humiliating when your neighbors see Child Protective Services come to your door and there's the big sign on the side of the car that says, you know, county so-and-so Child Protective services and three or four people get out with a bunch of papers in their hands and they walk up to your house. Well, every Mrs. Kravitz in the neighborhood is craning their neck and straining to see who's coming to your house. And then everybody wants to know why. You know?
(23:40):
Yeah. Just public humiliation is enough.
(23:42):
It is. That's the start of it. That is the start of it. And people who have the mindset that you are guilty, if they showed up at your door, you absolutely did something to cause them to be there. Their mindset's already made up, you know, and then there's the behind over the fence chit chat, you know, oh, I saw so and so, and, and oh boy. Yeah. It's a snowball thing and it's very, and it, and when you walk out your door and people, Hey, hey. Or they point at you and talk to somebody else. Yeah. , you know, that's isolating. You're already, you've been traumatized. No doubt about it. You have been traumatized.
(24:24):
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(24:56):
So before we actually wrap up the conversation, what is your hope about the problems that you are helping to solve? What's your hope for the future?
(25:08):
My hope is that, um, there is an earnest effort in maintaining a family structure. That there are, uh, harmful laws that are rescinded or reversed that actually support the family. You know, we all understand. No one's perfect. We, we, we're not perfect. We're not a perfect society and we don't make perfect laws. They look good, but when they're applied, sometimes they're worse than, than the whole problem to begin with. Um, I wanna see families who would otherwise be ripped apart, kept together. I would like to see foster care be less of a deterrent, or not a deterrent, but less harmful to families. Foster care system is, was not, was not created to, to separate families. It was created to help families stay together. And one of the things that's really shocking is you can actually get into a foster care training program with the intent of adopting. Okay, there's
(26:42):
Should And that doesn't even sense does it? Isn't it supposed to be a temporary situation until you find
(26:49):
Exactly. Exactly. You, you, you, you agree to morally support that core family structure. That's what you do. But the powers that be make that impossible. And unfortunately, there are people out there who are foster parents, and I was a foster parent over the course of 20 years. I carried a foster license. Um, there's, it's a, financially it's a lot more involved than a lot of people think. I know it because I was part of the system. Um, I think that because I was part of the system and became a victim of the system, I'm able to tell people there are some things going on out there that, that you really need to open your eyes to. Okay, we need a balance system and we begin with writing the wrongs. Let's get the title four E funding reallocated to title four B. Our concentration should be on family preservation and reunification.
(27:54):
Let's make sure that we have a situation where we can get mental health services for not only the people involved, um, and the children involved. You know, um, that, that it's something that is auto and automatic. You don't have to dig and dig and dig and dig and dig and dig and be turned down and be turned down. Right. Now my situation is I have seven children trying to find mental health services for reunification is nearly impossible. People say we don't do that many kids. Okay, so just the fact, and it's unprecedented. That's exactly the term that was used. Unprecedented. Okay. Um, so we need, we need to focus on our, on our nuclear families. We need to do everything in our power to help provide resources to keep that family together. And in the event that it does not happen, I think that we need to find some way to keep these children in connection with their, with their, um, biological families.
(29:07):
Be it a grandparent. You know, we need to focus more on, on having these kids stay with, with relatives, with kin rather than, than, you know, grandma and grandpa are perfectly capable of taking care of this child and raising this child. And, and, but you're not gonna do that. You're gonna give them to a total stranger. Okay? Because they're kin. This is how they say six months, four to six month range. If that child's been with a stranger, all of a sudden they become kin. Look up the definition of kin. That's not what it is. It's blood relation. Okay? It's familial relation, not I've been around you for six months now. You're my kin.
(29:51):
Well, I want everyone to refer to the article that I wrote about this situation because it goes over a lot of the details that Amy is mentioning here. And we all have the hope that a, a lot of these problems get solved and we just have to start working on it one problem at a time. And I wanna thank you so much for talking with me on this and we're gonna wrap up. Thank you so much for everything, Amy.
(30:17):
Oh, you're so very welcome. Keep in touch with me and I'll keep you in the loop, um, of the most recent things that we're doing. And happy holidays to everyone. Remember, Christmas is just a day. If you're without your children, you can celebrate that when you see your children again.
(30:35):
Thank you for listening today. My name is Sally Hendrick. Be sure to visit our website for show notes and more information on how you can inspire others. If you would like to contribute content to our magazine, please apply on our website at shoutyourcause.com.
